I had posted these comments on a Facebook page but they were removed by the page's creator as not being germane to the subject of his page. I disagree, but it's his page. As suggested by a couple of people, I am repeating those thoughts here.
Yesterday, more than 670 ministers and delegates from the Southern Missouri District of the Assemblies of God met to select a new Superintendent to replace Bill Baker who resigned mid-term and between regular council meetings.
There has been a groundswell developing in the district for younger, new-styled leadership. At least one web-site and a couple of Facebook pages have discussed this issue. Though I am not that young anymore, I sympathize with them. I have always found this district to be somewhat fuddy-duddy in its approach.
Ordinarily in settings like this, one of the other top district officials are the favorite to be elected. The Assistant Superintendent withdrew his name immediately upon being nominated, leaving only the Secretary-Treasurer, Stan Welch, on the ballot from the district officers. Sure enough, after the first electoral ballot, he was leading by a wide margin over a dozen or so candidates (I wish I had access to actual numbers).
On the third ballot, as per our bylaws, everyone but the top three were dropped from consideration. On this ballot through the fifth Stan Welch had a clear lead over the other two. However, his vote total didn't change and he hovered just below 50% (two-thirds is needed for election). One of the districts executive presbyters, Don Miller, began to open up a lead over another executive presbyter, Mickey Davis and was closing in on Stan Welch.
On the sixth ballot Don Miller passed Stan Welch and by the eighth ballot he went over the two-thirds necessary and was elected superintendent.
If you were there, you already know this, if not, I'm glad I could give you the information. But what I find interesting is the story that I think is told by this election.
As I said, it would have been following precedence to elect Stan Welch and, in fact, something like half of the voters seemed to lean that way. Another thing that traditionally happens in elections like this is that when one candidate has a large lead, supporters of the other candidates begin to shift their vote to the leader who looks "inevitable" to them.
Well, that's not what happened this time. Those supporting the other two candidates stayed their course and many of those who had been voting for Stan Welch began to shift. I won't say that this has never happened before, but it is hardly common.
I believe that--fair or not--a sizable portion looked upon Stan Welch (whose position, like the superintendent is a full-time job) as part of the status-quo that they wanted to see changed. I have not been around here long enough to know any of the players in our little drama, but I did already note that the two alternative candidates (including the eventual winner) were executive presbyters. They have many responsibilities and duties that they could also be considered status-quo.
This leads to a possible alternative explanation--that what the voters really wanted was someone who was currently a pastor so that experience would be fresher with the new superintendent. While this may have been behind some of the voting, I still think the non-status-quo argument is the strongest.
It remains to be seen if Don Miller desires to do things differently. I am looking forward to the future with interest.
I would love to hear from those who have the same or a different take on the proceedings. If you got here from Facebook, you can respond there. If you respond on this blog, please use your name. I find it personally frustrating to respond to Anonymous.
(Humorous aside. I was sitting near Ted Cederblom, pastor of the church where the meeting was held. As it began to fill, I asked him, "How many does this church hold?" He shrugged and guessed maybe 500. When the registration closed, it was announced that 678 delegates were present (along with a section of non-voters). I then told him, "Now you know.")
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Nice take on the proceedings. When I saw the amount of votes Stan got at first I thought he was a shoe in to win, but people wanted something different. You are right that both of the guys against him are in leadership and part of the status-quo. They would probably argue that one Presbyter's vote doesn't really do much.
ReplyDeleteI am excited about Don taking over, I think he will bring sympathy towards those that are younger without ignoring those that are older.
Bro. Caldwell,
ReplyDeleteI read your blog and could'nt disagree with you more. I have been part of the dist all my life and I have never found it to be fuddy duddy. It is political as with most other districts and we seen politics at its worst and or best Monday. It was disturbing to say the least.Do I think Gods will took place Monday, Absolutely Not !! How could it my friend when there was much politiking for the position and so many people in room were texting one another no doubt telling each other how or who they are voting for. men came to the Mic's with laptops ect.I believe before the next councuil that it should be announced tht all cell phones be shut off, no texting ect for the sake of reverence for the house of God. There was no annointing in the place nor spirit of God.The younger generationhas alot to learn and before they are passed anything they have to be found worthy and prove that they can carry it with the same convictions that our forefathers did.What I seen Monday was a major lack of respect for the elders and for the by-laws ect.There was a militant spirit a spirit that did not belong.
The young shout....but the old(or elders) weep for they have seen the glory, the honor, the reverence, and power of the former house. Something that the house lacks today. I am fearful for the AG's and some of the things that they are accepting as far as ministry ect, that includes our dist as well. The fuddy duddys were sitting in the pews my friend not amongst the leadership on the platform.God Bless. Pastor Terry R. Green
Most political council I have everbeen to in all my days in the So. Mo. Dist. Alot of people politiking for it. Pastor Terry R. Green
ReplyDeleteRyan. Let me clarify that since I don't know any of the candidates well, my point is one of perception. It seems to me that Stan Welch was perceived as part of the status-quo by being a full-time executive officer and that the other two were perhaps not because they were still in the pastorate. My only point is that unless one knows that one or the other is more forward-thinking, it is entirely possible that, given their positions as executive presbyters, they could be just as much status-quo (or even more so) than the one in the office. I have no idea myself; I am just commenting on what it seems was going on.
ReplyDeleteBrother Green: I think we are more in agreement than you think. Other than the overall perception of the district, my post did not say that what happened was good or bad. I was merely reading the story that I though was going on. I think you agree with me that there was a concerted effort by a large number to move away from the status-quo and this was reflected in the vote.
ReplyDeleteI am not connected well enough to know exactly what politicking occurred before or during the meeting. I don't know that I agree that there was more than in the past, just that it was a little more obvious. When Bro. Trask was elected over Bro. Stenhouse in 1993, it was due in part to Bro. Trask's serious campaigning for the job during his two years as General Treasurer by speaking at every camp meeting and similar event around the country. He developed a constituency that elected him over the expected candidate. Similarly, George Wood employed a similar strategy when he was the So Cal Asst. Supt. to capture the General Secretary job the same year.
I appreciate your comments on the communication going on by computer and smart phone during the meeting. I didn't follow any of the tweets, so I cannot tell you the content, but I too wonder if this is really a good idea. This should be re-visited.
As far as leaving room for the moving of the Holy Spirit, I wonder if it is not possible to be led by the Spirit in advance--in other words, you don't really need to be listening in the meeting because one thinks he or she has heard from God before getting to the meeting.
As I said, I think we agree more than you think. I appreciate your willingness to participate and the fact that you signed your name. We need to continue to discuss the issues raised.
So sorry that more who were at the special council were not able to stay for the Spiritual Renewal. God met with us in a very special way as Randy Hurst shared what Bro. Baker had asked for him to share- Hearing from God. I trust all will give the district leadership team a chance to lead this district into this new season. It should be known that Bro. Welch and I are working closely together in the office and are excited with the rest of the team for what God will do in the days ahead. Our truest purpose was expressed at the end of the Minister's Renewal on Wednesday. That is the same purpose as stated by Jesus- To seek and to save that which is lost! Don Miller
ReplyDeleteTwo Scriptures came to mind as I read Brother Green's comment.
ReplyDeleteLet everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Romans 13:1
If you believe Scripture is inerrant you cannot believe God's will was not done.
And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. 38But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, 'The old is better.'" Luke 5:37-39
Computers and cell phones are new wineskins, but the Lord told us that those who partook of the old wine would always say the old wine is better--even though the winemaker sees the need to constantly produce new wine. I know my time of decrying new wine is coming. Lord, keep me humble.
Guy Caley
Pastor Terry R Green: "It is difficult to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person!"
ReplyDeleteOkay, gentlemen, let's keep it civil here.
ReplyDeleteGuy, I think you have proof-texted a bit. God has given authority, but a deliberative body can make a mistake on who they put into that job. We still have to obey those leaders once they are there, but it does not follow that those particular leaders are who God wanted. The wineskin pericope is about the gospel--to apply it to technology is more than a stretch. I don't think that Terry Green's comment about using technology to form voting blocs and the like (if that's what was happening) is invalid. I too question whether it is a good idea.
Terry, that was uncalled for and you know it. I know he picked the fight but we all need to act like ambassadors of the gospel everywhere.
I said these were the Scriptures that came to mind, not that I had exegeted them. Still as for the Romans passage I think it is absolutely correct to say that if one believes God's will was thwarted in the selection of leadership, you must dismiss what Paul says about God establishing authority. God has his way whether we vote or text or cast lots. Now you could say people behaved in an ungodly manner, but I took Brother Green to be saying that the outcome was not God's will and that God's will could not have been done because people were texting and politicking. Reread the post. That seems to be what he said.
ReplyDeleteI also fail to see a biblical or even a legitimate reason why folks should not be able to discuss via text their voting process. Are we saying we can never discuss an issue to be voted on if we want God's will? Because it wasn't done that way in the past offers no reason why it is inherently ungodly.
As for the New wineskins, I agree the gospel is in view, but if you look the Lukan context is not strictly the Gospel but a complaint about Jesus' disciples not fasting like John the Baptist's disciples. So the immediate context is not the Gospel, but doing things in a different way than established practice. Jesus is talking about the well known human resistance to change.
It seems to me that a complaint about using technology in a way it wasn't used previously with an implication that it is less spiritual than the old way is precisely the kind of thing Jesus was talking about. I don't think Jesus is really even casting aspersion on the fact that people prefer the old wine to the new, he's just stating it as a fact.
Any of us who have been around for any length of time know that it is always human nature to think the new thing will never live up to the old thing.
Perhaps the best way to do away with the sort of politicking we all hate is to have a far more open procedure instead of a shut up and vote system. I don't think anyone can deny that we do far more diligence in pastoral selection in churches than we do in selecting district leadership. This leaves those who are outside the in crowd feeling like they don't know anything about the candidates and then they get criticized for asking for a more open process and criticized as unspiritual for texting to see if someone can help them get a better idea of who the candidates are.
I hope no one is offended that I share my opinion. Note that I do it without insult. One can disagree without being disagreeable
It is a good-ole-boy system. The old timers will run this denomination completely in the ground in order to maintain their "traditions". And they'll do it with a holier-than-thou preacher voice to prove God's anointing. Shear ignorance--if you like the results you have always received, keep doing the things you're doing! But you'll be doing them without the participation of your children and grandchildren; they'll go elsewhere or nowhere to church. Rev. Terry Green's credibility is nullified by the fact that he cannot even spell simple words like “couldn’t, politicking, mics, council, anointing, a lot, and etc”. His statement “we seen politics at its worst” is the epitome of ignorance. I’ve heard George Wood talk about preachers like him who believe it is a sign of godliness to have an idiot level IQ and be proud of it. Glad to say, the day has passed when ignorance will pass for holiness in most circles. Either the Southern Missouri District will raise the bar and require its ministers to conduct business in an intelligent and informed way, or it will find itself serving an aging, dying, ignorant population while the younger ministers affiliate elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteBro. Bob,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your kind comments and I agree with them so whole heartily. Sorry for the mis-spelling of certain words that made me look like an 'idiot' and or 'ignorant' as stated by the anonymous comment above.This spirit is the spirit that needs to be un-welcomed in our movement and is this spirit that is destroying our movement , more than, "the traditions of the older group." I am as educated as any and yes I am quilty of "typo's."LOL
I have dialogued with Bro. Wood alot this year as well as others and I have expressed my concerned with some of the things we are welcoming into our movement, especially this emergent church concept and bringing a secular spirit into a sacred place in order to bring in the bodies and the bucks so we can build our buildings and empires. I think a good question for all us pastors young or old, "do you want a crowd or do you want a church?" there is a difference. May the younger never forget the account of Rehoboam in 1 Kings 12. He sought advice from the wise and older group and heard them out and he heard advice from the younger group as well. he took the younger ones advice and it proved fatal for him and for Israel.
I don't say that the younger generation has no voice, I was young once myself, but I have spent a lifetime gleaning from my elders and also by adhereing to the truth of Gods word. I also have stayed true to our own by-lams by which our own movement has forsaken in many aspects in accepting some of the things that are being accepted today in our ranks.
As far as Guys statement concerning new wine....I'm all for new wine too Bro. Guy as long as it does'nt have any Leaven in it !!
We don't need a Martin Luther today to nail 95 thesis' to the church house doors, we need someone with some steel in their spine to nail the word and our by-laws to it !!
As far as the above comment in which was to cowardly to place their name, "if it was'nt for th old-timers my friend there would not be an Assemblies of God and a AG church for you to Pastor (that is if you are a pastor.)
The church in America is dying, the church in foreign lands is thriving(I Heard Ravi Zacharias even state that not long ago). I heard a missionary say not long ago, that by the standards of those in foreign lands that are christians, that they would not think that most tht claim to be christian on America are Christians. thats pretty sad !
The groups we are putting before our kids whether it be on the Dist. level and or Gen. level are abhorent. We have forsaken Article 9 Sec. 6 of our by-laws and worldliness has found its way into the church and our Movement and we have ignored what David Wilkerson warned us about back in the 90's when he spoke to our body. We better wake up !! Whether we are pastors, Dist supt, Gen. Supt yout leaders ect, let me serve notice "WE CANNOT BE FRIENDS WITH EVERYONE !!" and thats what we are trying to do.
Before I stop let me say The early apostles were consiidered to be ignorant and unlearned men and I am glad that I have been called, in the previous comment what they were called. What an honor it is to be amongst that company ! God Bless !! Pastor Terry R. Green
Bro. Bob,
ReplyDeletelet me add that I have every intention before next council or at council itself to request or motion that there be no tweeting, texting ect during business sessions ect. They have no place whatsoever and I have no doubt that they were instrumental in Mondays meeting.
I did also apreciate Bro. Newby stopping the effort of having stump speeches from those that were canidates for the positon.I will say that that if anyone did campaign and politic for it, they don't deserve it whether it was by mouth, e-mails, FB or whatever means. May we ecer desire to have more on Gods hand on our ministry than man's and or our own ! God Bless ! Pastor Terry R. Green
I hpoe I pseledl ervyetihgn irhgt. LOL
Brother Green,
ReplyDeleteI still fail to see how you think texting or tweeting is unbiblical or harmful, other than the fact that it's not the way it was done before and you don't like it.
I know many people wanted a much more open discussion and a chance to hear from the candidates because they simply didn't know much about them. The powers that be were unwilling to let that happen so people decided to do what they could to try to make informed decisions. Why is that unspiritual?
I think the best answer would be to take the whole process more seriously and not leave it up to a nominating ballot and then, hey if you don't them then tough for you, and no you can't make any attempt to find out anything about them because we've never done it that way before.
Did it occur to you that many of them were probably not texting or tweeting but simply going out on the web to see what information they could find out about the candidates and their philosophies of ministry and experience since that information was being denied to them in the meeting?
I was unable to attend, but I was able to follow what was happening because people were posting it (unlike the General council where all of it was webcast live). I was doing exactly that, searching the web to find out what I could about these candidates I didn't know. Had I been in the meeting I would have wanted to do the same thing. Would it have been unspiritual to try to make an informed decision?
If that's the case, please let's just cast lots like they did in the book of Acts.
I appreciate your perspective. I hope you can appreciate that others might disagree with you and still love Jesus and want the best for our movement just like you do.
Blessings,
Guy Caley
Rev. Terry Green: You need to correct your theology; the church building is not the church. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit: "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands." (Acts 17:24) There is nothing in the New Testament about a building being holy or sacred. New Testament Christians did not have buildings; they were the church. I assume you are speaking of churches like James River and Northpoint with your comment: "bringing a secular spirit into a sacred place in order to bring in the bodies and the bucks so we can build our buildings and empires"? Music styles, technology, etc. are neither secular or sacred; they are simply tools to be employed and utilized. You are confusing your nostalgic feelings about the past with God's Spirit.
ReplyDeleteTo the author of the comment who said the SOMO
ReplyDeleteDistrict is not fuddy duddy. I will disagree with enthusiasm. It is possibly the most backward and least progressive district I have ever been a part of. I have now been a part of three different districts. The comments about turning off cell phones shows a complete lack of understanding in the role social media plays in our current culture. I sincerely hope Don Miller chooses to lead this district to a powerful place. A place where young ministers are embraced and accepted and the status quo is no longer acceptable, a place where the "Bro. Pastor" idea of entitlement is pushed aside. Here's praying for you Don. May you be blessed with leadership abilities beyond what've ever has to employ.
One more thing :) I am completely turned off when a pastor (I am one ) introduces himself to a peer as "Pastor Johnny" Really? You've changed your first name to Pastor? Has nothing to do with respect and everything to do with ones desire for relevance and personal authority.
ReplyDeleteMr. Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYour spirit and attitude just makes my point even clearer.talk to the missionaries my friend especially David Grant he'll tell you So.Mo.Dist. has and is the greatest Dist around.kinda the trend setter for all others since we're in he same city as the HQ.If we could only ask Jesus about th house of God being a sacred place? How about Eli &his son's ? i think you have some learning to do my friend. I'm 55 and learning everyday.I still have respect for my elders as well.Your spirit pretty much describes the spirit felt Monday.I am truly praying for BROTHER Don and the direction of our dist and th future thereof and ALL leadership. God Bless ! PASTOR Terry R. Green
James river No. NPC yes my friend.I suppose you probaly like Perry Noble, Steven Furtick, Brian Mclaren, Rick warren, seventh day Slumber, KJ52, group 1 crew ect.If we are going to endorse such groups as the dist. and HQ's do, we better throw our by-laws away !! And write Ichabod over our doors ! Check'em out Bro. Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteI go out of town for one day and you guys hijack my blog. Let's take a deep breath and chill.
ReplyDeleteI love technology but I understand Terry Green's uncomfortableness with using smart phones during an election, if, as he claims, politicking was going on. After reading some of the other comments, however, I agree that a different election system could make that obsolete.
Terry: I have been in a few other districts and it is clear that many districts are far more progressive that Southern Missouri in the way they operate. This district does not lead the way in anything. I think the story of the election (remember the point of my post) is that more progressive thinking ministers--regardless of age--have spoken that they do not want status-quo any longer.
To all my new friends, we sometimes speak ugly things out of frustration. I understand your frustration with the kind of thinking that Terry Green expresses because you have felt it oppressive when it seems to control our district. However, never be ugly. Please
A note to my "young Turk" friends. I am getting older (54), but I am with you in spirit. Here is how you effect change in the district: participate at the sectional level and elect younger and forward-thinking presbyters.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking with Ted Cederblom on Monday, I asked him how he fit into the presbytery age wise (he is 47). He answered that he is the youngest. In 1993 I became presbyter of my section in Southern California. I was only 36. But I had gone to every single sectional meeting since I arrived at the church in 1989. I went to meaningful events and dumb ones. I participated in every discussion with fellow-ministers that I could. And then I got the opportunity to lead them.
My call to you guys is this: If you have not been participating at the sectional level, begin to do so. Don't just network with your friends, network with those who you don't agree with. Don't hang with just pastors, pay attention to the assistant pastors and retirees. Even if your section does things in an old-fashoined way, be there.
(Side Note: Our section always meets at Golden Corral. Does any place scream old-time minister's meeting like Golden Corral? We couldn't go to a Chinese buffet once?)
In other words, don't look to the top to make changes, make them from the bottom-up.
Good post, Bob.
ReplyDeleteOh, Also wanted to say the very first council I went to in IL in 1996 I Believe, a long-standing Sup. was unseated and the voting went much like Mondays (Although it went on for two days). On the nominating ballot the incumbent came within one vote of election, he lost votes on every ballot after that until one of the more forward thinking Presbyters was elected.
ReplyDeleteAnd nobody had a smart phone.
Very well put Bro. Bob,
ReplyDeleteNot m intention to hijack your Blog. As a younger minister I sat where the young sit today. As a third generation pentecostal AG minister we went to every function possible whether it was Campmeeting (which they don't have anymore) CA Rally's (which they don't have anymore) All day fellowship meetings (which they have anymore) Dist councils (which they do have, but families don't go, only pastors & delegates) And as a teenager I learned about the men of our dist long before I ever knew them. I knew Bro. Baker long before, he ever knew me, long before I ever served on staff with him. How? I watched im in actin for decades and I knew these men were Godly men because their lives and all they did modeled the life of Christ and they were destined to be a leader in whatever capcity God would have them lead.I never knew anything about these guys only, I knew they were Godly men ! One day after many years, I became a young minister, I came to the place where I would be able to cast a ballot or vote ad even then, I still did'nt know everything about hese guys, but I knew.....that they were godly men ! Today, whether it be in washington or dist politic's (regardless the dist) those men that stood out , heads aboveeveryone else is becoming fewer and fewer. out nation does'nt have men that stands out like they once did d my prayer is that the young today as you stated, go to whatever they can, glean from the elders, learn from the younger, don't just lend an ear to one age group and in the midst desire to be Godly & Holy men so that one day a younger person will look to them and know that thy are Godly men !!
To have had the canidates spak would have put them in a bad situation, because one could hardly do that regardless of who we are without using th word "I" and "I" in the greek means "Ego." And whatever they would have said would have been reduced to nothing but a stump speech as they are doing in Gov.Politic's. When it comes to functions such as Monday, we are not a democracy, but a spiritual enity that needs the leadership of the Holy Spirit and Gods hand to guide us through these most difficult times.
We live in a lazy time ,no longer are there campmeetings, CA Rallys, fellowship meetings, true Revivals but we live in a day when Sunday night services & Wed as well are becoming a rareity. The spirit of accomodation is sweeping our land ! The carnal mind of many christaians are desiring to be like Godless people, but they inject just enough Jesus or truth in whatever their doing to make it acceptable in our ranks and we call it "the gospel" which makes it even more dangerous.There is a tragic mixture today that is set ut not to enhance but to destroy. Truth and error travels the same road but it's going to take the discernment of the Holy Spirit to tell the difference between the two.
I am all for change, change is inevitable but as Trask said in his parting days in the enrichment mag."lets not change for change sake." The wisdom writer wrote in prov.24:21,22 "meddle not with them that are given to change, for their calamity shall rise suddenly, and who knoweth the ruin of them both." Lets be careful as to what we applaud, for what we applaud we encourage and there's children thats coming up thats watching, as I did as a kid, and what we do will have an everlasting impact on their lives.
We live in a day thats compareable to the generation that followed after Josuha, that knew not God nor have ever seen the true hand of God at work and my desire and prayer is that a Man from God whether it be a Pastor, our Dist Supt., our Gen. Supt, and or a young person would stand and call us back to Godlness, Holiness (not legalism) but true Holiness and separation. God Bless Pastor Terry R. Green
Bro. Bob, Let me add, In an above comment I was deemed as one not having any wit. I am a very highly educated person, yet that means little to me. I have read nearly 8000 books since 1983 and that as well means little to me, I have built churches and preached before thousands, means nothing, I have lived way beyond my 55 years means very little. I have just mentioned the word "I" around six or Seven times.But its not I but its Christ that lives in me that matters. His presence matters !! That means alot to me and without it all that we do, all that we;ve done means little or nothing at all.We truly need is presence in these last days and times , God Bless Pastor Terry R. Green
ReplyDeleteWow. I have a lot of thoughts but I'll with hold most of them.
ReplyDeleteI do think there is a division in the house but it a philosophical division not a theological division. At the core the "older" generation and the "younger" generation both seek to see Christ glorified and people saved, no one I know will dispute that.
However I must, with all due respect, disagree with those who are calling for a ban on cell phones and computers. Should we also ban all whispering, talking, writing notes and making faces that express any emotion or in anyway betray our personal opinions. Should we ban all forms of personal thought and opinion and kick everyone who dares express a thought to someone else that may impact their vote?
Of course not that would be ridiculous. To ban all forms of communication would offend anyone with a thought and in a room full of pastors we'd all be kicked to the curb.
Texting is writing a note. It's actually in my opinion more respectful and less distracting than leaning over and whispering. The conversations that used to happen in the back halls and at the local restaurants are now happening on phones and websites and blogs. Same conversation just a different medium.
Don't mistake (or blame) the medium for the message. The medium of cell phones and computers don't create the message or the perceived attitude issue. You're throwing out the baby with the bath water on this one I feel.
Secondly there is a reason this was the largest attended council ever. People had something to say and it wasn't just the younger crowd. I too have been in 3 different Districts and I too fell that this one has a long way to go to be a leader in anyway shape or form. The good news is that God has given this District the people we need to do the works he has called us to. God absolutely had His way at that council. Brother/Pastor/His Honorable Highness Don Miller is a great guy and he will do a great job, I have no doubt!
The best is yet to come my friends so lets all jump on board and pull together toward the cause of Christ: His glory and the lost being saved.
Love you all,
Jason Buchan
Would someone help me understand the biblical backing from selecting our leadership the way we currently do it? I see in Acts two ways 1) Drawing Straws and 2) Choose from among you those who are KNOWN to be full of the Spirit and wisdom (Acts 6).
ReplyDeleteI'm fine with electing leaders but hard to say I "know" them to be wise and full of the Spirit if I don't know them. I think our systems and structures have served us well and don't think they need to go away; however, I do think they need to be tweaked and refined to accommodate the growing body of ministers. Of the 600+ that were there I knew maybe 12-15 and of about another 10-15. I did not know Don Miller or Mickey Davis so I simply asked guys who did via text. And both men received high remarks from different areas of our district.
I am a product of this district. Pastor Bill Baker was my pastor growing up and Pastor Green played a role in my development as well. I respect and honor those who have gone before. I also know that in order to reach more unbelievers we can't keep doing what we've always done and expect different results.
Clearly you missed the point that it's unspiritual because we haven't done it that way before. The same with replacing Sunday evening services with small groups. Even though that might provide better accountability and spiritual growth, the fact that churches are doing away with Sunday evening services is seen as evidence by some that they are less spiritual. Just like Jesus and His followers were criticized as unspiritual because they didn't keep the same rules about fasting as John the Baptist and his followers.The old wine was better.
ReplyDeleteI agree Brother Green that change for change's sake is unwise, but to see any change as unspiritual is equally unwise. Let by whatever means possible win some.
I would highly reccommend that all go to sermonindex.org tonight the 21st. and register and watch the conference from Georgia that features "Pastor Carter Conlon " from times square preaching on "have we lost the fea of God?" There is also a great line up of preachers for sat the 22nd featuring Paul Washer, keith Daniels, David RavenHill and some others. This is a conference that all need to watch and messages that we need to hear.
ReplyDeleteLeo proud of you man !! Was hoping to say something to you Monday !
I'll leave the subject alone after this statement. But we go to Hospitals and other places that require that one shuts off their cell phones, Ipads, I pods or whatever for certain reasons. If you're like me, you do it out of respect ect. Gods house deserves the highest respect and there should be as little distractions as possible. I would say, while someone is talking , preaching ect it is very disrespectful to text, tweet or whatever when someone has the floor.
For the bro. Anonymous, I have alot of bus kids that live in Godless homes, that call me pastor Green without any training to do that. its a respect thing man! My van kids could teach a few a lesson on respect. Doubt if you call your Doctor by his first name and I doubt that you'd address the pres. or queen by their first.But respect has become less than what it once was. pretty sad ! God Bless ! Pastor Terry R. Green
Guy Caley while I disagree with Pastor Terry on some points I don't think your post does him service at all. He has a different view than you on what needs to be changed but I don't think he is anti-change.
ReplyDeleteThe things that were spiritual benchmarks and difference makers for him and his generation are indeed fading away. His view (and please correct me if I'm wrong Pastor Terry) is that if these things that so strongly impacted the generations are gone then the result will be a smaller impact for Christ in the future. It's not an aversion to change but a caution to not lose the progress generations before us have made.
I happen to be on the side the would rather not have sunday nights, rather not wear suits and rather not insist everyone call me Reverend. I think Sunday nights and revivals are no longer the most effective ways to reach and disciple people in our day, but I do understand why others disagree with me.
The name calling, finger pointing and side picking only serve to divide us. Rather than accusing and writing people off who disagree with you might I suggest that you ask questions to better understand them and why they think that way.
I hope we can grow to the point that the young crave the wisdom of the experienced and the old crave the innovation and creativity of the young.
Until we get both we'll never be at our strongest.
I hope to post by tomorrow sometime a post on how the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod chooses their leaders. It is quite interesting and might stir some more great discussion. I am glad to have stimulated you guys to discuss and hope to do so again.
ReplyDeleteI hope Brother Green doesn't see me as name calling or writing him off. I don't think I've done that.
ReplyDeleteBut he clearly did use ending Sunday evening services as an evidence of loss of spirituality, I attempted to show that the exact opposite may be true.
As for the phone issue, on the Facebook site you've got Brother Hembree stating that his young people are texting him questions during his sermons that he replies to after the service and tweeting the truths they are hearing and he thinks that's just fine.
Brother Green, I'm not much younger than you and I mean no disrespect, I just want you to see that the things you are concerned about are perhaps not a reason for concern but rejoicing.
If somebody tweets or makes a facebook post during your service a point that you made that touches their heart, then you just reached potentially hundreds that will never sit in your service.
If a church cancels Sunday evening service to have small groups, they may be growing deeper in fellowship and holiness than they ever could in a Sunday morning (take 2) service--and they may reach people who would never come into a church building.
Don't be so quick to write off the younger generation as not desiring God's best. Their goal is to share the never changing message in a way that connects with people who live in a very different world than the one we grew up in.
My goal is that we learn what it means to be truly Pentecostal and ministering in power in this day and age.
Blessings!
Oh, if there were only a progressive Pentecostal/charismatic movement to join. This archaic denomination with its huge rear-view-mirror is blocking the entire windshield to the future. Shall we bring back the "CA" song as well? SoMo progressive??? If the 1950's ever come back, we'll be ready.
ReplyDeleteJust so everyone knows, I am not aligning myself with this anonymous poster, who I think is not contributing in a healthy way to the discussion. We need to be thankful for our heritage and the fact that a willingness to challenge the status quo was how we GOT the modern Pentecostal movement. We need to embrace that spirit of being open to the Spirit leading us into a "New Thing" like our forbears were. We need to hold fast to the truth of Scripture while holding loosely to the trappings of culture.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate my Dad and the generations before him and respect the fact that they found a way to communicate the gospel in the power of the Spirit in a way that spoke to their generation.
I honor that legacy best not by holding to the method that worked for them, but to the Spirit that empowered them and the pioneering spirit that made them willing to embrace the new things God was doing.
I so appreciate those like Brother Hembree who is willing to be open to the tools of a new culture that are niether good nor evil on their own but have the opportunity to be wonerfull tools for reaching the next generation.
May we never lose the spirit of the Pentecostal pioneers!
Thank you Guy and jason for your kind words. I am not near the old fogey that it appears and I do embrace change as long as it does not destroy the foundation of the word and the vision of our forefathers of our great movement.I love young people and I eluded to the CA rallies because it was something that all wet to, senior pastors and all to support young people today. I went to a youth gathering a few years ago, and there was about four or five hundred there and I was the only senior pastor there. As Dickens wrote, we live in the worst of times , yet also the best of times and Iam an ultra optimist to focus on he best of times knowing that the harvest is ripen like never before and many need to be saved and we must work while it is day for the time is coming and perhaps soon when we won't be able to do it.
ReplyDeleteI am however concerned about this "emergent church' attitude and idea's that even some in our dist have adopted such as hell being a metaphor and deeming Brian mclaren s a very Godly and spiritual man. (mclaren is the father of the emergent church doctrine & movement) This spirit is sweeping through all mainline denominations and we must keep our guards up. We are crazy to think that we like they can't deminish as others have.We must keep the foundation strong and work together ith the common cause of winning the lost.We may differ on different things but we don't when it comes to the need of reaching this generation. God Bless ! Pastor Terry R.Green
If anyone in the AG has embraced McLaren's latest stuff I'm not aware of it. I also don't know of anyone saying hell is a metaphor. James Railey has an article coming out in Enrichment defending the traditional view of hell/eternal punishment. Emerging and Emergent church is used so broadly as to be pretty much useless as a descriptive and certainly not everyone who is a part of it embraces McLaren. I think it is more often about style than doctrine.
ReplyDeleteBy the way I remember growing up with all of the same meetings you do. As a PK my parents would get me out of school to go to the afternoon services of the Sectional fellowship meetings when those were not just for pastors. I loved me some Blueberry pie at those things. I understand the nostalgia for those days. But now the church I'm at is spearheading a city-wide men's ministry that is seeing souls saved, lives transformed and families restored. I don't remember that happening when I was growing up, somehow I think the kingdom impact of the latter is greater than the former,and if I had to pick one I'd pick the interdenominational men's ministry hands down.
I also remember going to the youth rallies. They were literally the highlight of my month. But perhaps that was because they were the only youth event, we never had a youth pastor. Now my kids have several youth events each month and our youth ministry is drawing in kids with no church background who are getting saved. I don't remember that happening on a regular basis at the youth rallies.
Still I do remember wonderful times at revival services and wish my kids might experience that as well, but all things considered I have to say honestly that the AG I know today is doing more effective intentional outreach than the AG of my youth that seemed more focused on exiting spiritual experiences for the people already in the church more than reaching those outside the church.
Yet still, when I think of sectional fellowship meetings and Camp Meetings (with Dan Betzer and Ira Stanphill) and youth rallies I DO still get nostalgic. Nothing wrong with that.
Guy, I know for a fact and have hard copy proof of statements from dist pastors that endorse Brian Mclaren (of which himself denies a literal hell) of which Ag pastors or pastor speaks of hell metaphorically. he went as far as stating and I quote, "mclaren is the mst Godly and spiritual man I have ever met." and went furthr to say that it would take "ten Bill Bakers to make one Brian Mclaren!" By th way, Ten Bro. Bakers would be a very large man .LOL This pastor is highly endorsed, and no one will touch him. If young pastors/ministers see his success then they might be temted to adopt his methods beliefs ect. A very bad example of our doctrine and practices.Those like this must be stopped my friend ! We have those that defended Rob Bell another dangerous example.Thats just a few thigs I have a growing concern for my friend.
ReplyDeleteI agree we have to get outside the church, its a must !! I do it myself !
I know what you mean about Dan Betzer and Ira Stanphill, I also loved and still do Don Brankel, The late BH Clendennen, Bill Popejoy, The mcDuff brothers an countless others. They were good days, but greater days lie ahead !God Bless ! Pastor Terry R, Green
p.s. I don't like to be called reverend, makes me sound to Holy.LOL someone eluded to that earlier, perhaps our anonymous friend.
Give me that ole time religion--because we all know Jesus and the apostles sang our songs, followed Robert's Rules, went to Missionettes and Royal Rangers, CA's, went to Sunday School, Morning and Evening Worship, Midweek Services, and abided by the 16 Fundamental Truths. Oh, I forgot these are simply wineskins that we love to love! "The only thing constant in life is change!"
ReplyDeleteOK. I think we're done here. Thank you all for participating. To the anonymous poster: If you want to post in the future you don't have to sign in, just sign your name at the end of the post please.
ReplyDeleteThanks Bob for putting up with this. God Bless ! Pastor terry R. Green
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